Dbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Ahoy mateys!
A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.
But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. …
More context
Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.
As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. …
Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.
In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.
Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated
i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it
This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.
The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.
The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.
Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can’t say for example is “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!”. This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it’s) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.
However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.
Now, the person who makes the statement “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!” is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it’s also saying that they’re roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it “down” to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.
Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about “how national socialism is talked about exactly”?! Isn’t it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.
This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.
Now, if you say something like “Trump’s ICE resembles early national socialism!”, that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, “early [stages of] national socialism”, and not “national socialism [in general]”.
Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people’s lives than the other.
I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from “full national socialism style genocide”. I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn’t know/understand/agree with this argument.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
about the later’s Zionist Bar Problem
I’d prefer to have a less biased title for this thread because this is a very one-sided point of view and just parrots what the db0 admin claims without questioning them.
Edit: Thanks for putting it in quotation marks, OP.
Disappointing how many downvotes you have, especially given zero other responses thus far. You’ve got a valid point, and the mod/admin teams at db0 already have their own behavior issues, so there’s surely more to the story than this.
so there’s surely more to the story than this.
I mean in addition to instances zionism the feddit.org admin used a troll comm to called out several users for the crime of upvoting the defed thread, and then those users started getting DM harassment
I didn’t notice c/europe was zionists. I just typed israel, I see highly (legitimately) upvoted posts against it.
I’m sure you can find some unsavory stuff, but I haven’t stumbled upon it once.
On the other hand I’ve been confronted to authoritarian bootlickers too many times from ml. If you don’t defederate from them too then you’re not being consistent.
Echo chambers make you stupid.
I think this is a stupid move, but it shows the shitty mindset, that evolved on db0. Bye!
deleted by creator
Dang and I just made this account too. Time to find a new instance… Any recommendations? How is lemmy.today?
This whole process has looked sus to me. And on top of that, I don’t think voting by up/downvoting the post itself is a good way to call votes — it means a minority can pass a rule without it being even seen by the majority (not sure that matters in this case). Voting should be done in a top-level comment.
You can come to feddit.org, we have mostly normal people instead of armchair internet warriors lol
So many comments jesus. I ain’t reading all that. Free Palestine and Death to Israel.
And Death to Germany!
This thread even 18 hrs later:
It has created some funny interactions, the best part is that it still has one more day left in the all/active tab
Oh, yeah, “They removed my comment where I’m just an asshole and telling people to kill themselves, they are such zionists 😭”
The fuck is wrong with you guys?
Yeah, the good old “You are a Nazi for following rules”-thing. Because everyone who follows rules does so indly, except for oneself.
One may well ask: “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “an unjust law is no law at all.”
- Martin Luther King Jr. in Birmingham Jail 1963
How would you categorize the community rules “Be nice to each other”, “Don’t insult each other” and “Don’t call for violence”? Just or unjust, dair or unfair, sensible or dumb, expedient or not?
How would you categorize the feddit.org admin using a snark comm to get people to send DM harrassment to users who upvoted the feddit.org defederation thread?
is that ‘being nice’?
I followed your link. It shows a comment you made, yet with another link to a comment by Emopunker@feddit.org. And you claim that they harass people. The comment by Emopunker shows a screenshot where three usernames are listed that share similarities. Emopunker says that they have the suspicion that the shown users are the same person with alt accounts.
In conclusion: I wonder whether you forgot to attach some context, because based on this alone I don’t see anything that support your claims.
Its such an empty criticism when they federate with the ml instances.
I don’t get it. Huh? I find sentiment on .ml extremely anti-Zionist.
They’re pretty anti zionist. Only because Israel represents the west in all its brutality. They fully support the Russian invasion and genocide of Ukraine though, hence the hypocrisy.
There is no genocide in Ukraine. Ukranians are Russians.
Truly a .ml stance haha. Do you think the people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian? Is that why they’re fighting tooth and nail to avoid the Russian oppressors?
They’re fighting because the US made them. They would be perfectly happy Russians if not for NATO.
Does the NZ in your username stand for NaZi? Fucc off colonizer
This will probably be unpopular but the leftist - liberal infighting is my least favorite part of the fediverse and why I usually end up having to give people a warning before telling them to get on the fediverse.
This drama is kind of the epitome of that
Before Lemmy, I didn’t know it was possible to go so left that you hated liberals.
Liberalism is supportive of capitalism, leftism begins at anti-capitalism. What did you think the left was before Lemmy?
Liberalism was the original leftism: see the French revolutionary National Assembly. It doesn’t intrinsically have anything to do with capitalism. In general, liberalism is neither left nor right. It promotes individualism. Historically, it progressed from humanism.
leftism begins at anti-capitalism
Not the political science definition.
General definitions & the historical development of liberalism are academic.
liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty.
Some of the earliest liberal practices are found in the US Declaration of Independence, which predates the French revolution spreading the practice of liberal ideals throughout Europe. The US declaration pretty much rehashes core tenets of liberal philosophy
- inherent equality of individuals
- universal individual rights & liberties
- consent of the governed (governments exist for the people who have a right to change & replace them, & authority is legitimate only when it protects those liberties).
Note how capitalism isn’t mentioned anywhere: it’s nonessential. Capitalism predates & isn’t liberalism. Liberalism is moral & political philosophy, not an economic one.
The philosophy is a natural progression of humanist philosophies from the Renaissance through the Protestant Reformation & the Enlightenment that stress the importance of individuality, secular reasoning, & tolerance over dogma & subservience to unaccountable authority. To address unaccountable authority based on dogma & traditions, English & French philosophers defined legitimate authority based on humanist morality pretty much as expressed in the US declaration. They argued that political systems thrive better with limits & duties on authority & an adversarial system of institutional competition whether in separation of powers, adversarial law system with habeas corpus & right to jury trial, competitive elections, dialogue, or economic competition.
Liberalism arose as a bourgeois ideology to use against the feudalist systems, the equivalent in feudalism being the clergy and the church. The mode of production capitalism is based on individual ownership of capital, and claiming the labor-power sold by workers is equal in position to the capitalists buying the labor-power and selling commodoties.
Liberalism was left when feudalism was dominant. Putting it in its historical context, it helped overthrow feudalism. However, there is no “Absolute Idea” of Hegel, what was progressive at one point is still reactionary at a later point. In the era of capitalist decay, socialism is on the left, the progressive ideology.
Corporate media didn’t want you to be exposed to any ideas outside of the Overton window.
Sometimes the further left extremes I’ve heard hear are indistinguishable from conservative Q-Anon. I legitimately need to check users post histories to understand which extreme they are on
I joined to talk about math and programming. It’s a letdown that this Podunk platform seems to consist mostly of the weirdest, loudest people who saw the political compass meme and took it way too seriously.
I can’t think of any “leftist organisations” that support Zionism ? Maybe you’re confusing fascist with leftist ?
I mean “leftist organization” is a weird term and I would more speak of currents. And there is definitely the Antideutsche or Anti-Germans.
The German left, at least the loud one, is publically dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.
Saying Hamas is antisemitic is sure fire sign of being a Zionist.
Palestinians are a semitic people.
If you want to saw that Hamas hates Jews, well, when your entire life has been being bombed by planes with stars of David on them, while jackbooted thugs with stars of David on their shoulder kick in your door to kidnap your family members in the night, and settlers with star of David necklaces show up and claim your home and land by divine right, I can start to see where you develop feelings toward the people who carry the same sign.
Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim as they are so fucking desperate to do.
Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim
You probably already know this, but Israel wants the world to be a more dangerous place for Jews to justify Israel’s illegitimate existence and aggression. That’s why they conducted terrorist attacks against Ethiopian Jews, to convince them that they needed to move to Israel as it’s the only safe place for them… where they’re then met by deep-rooted racism.
Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting.
Seriously, imagine typing “there is often only ‘anti genocide and pro genocide’ in online discussions” and thinking “yes, I will post this and look like a very good and moral person”. Yes, if you’re not against genocide you’re for genocide. Yes, if you think supporting the resistance to genocide is antisemitic, you are a genocidal zionist. This type of “nuanced” “anti-zionism” (liberal zionism) is also widespread on feddit.org.
By fucking german law at that. And they enforce it too. Never again, as defined by nihlists with no soul serving the plutocracy while the far right takes their country from them and fixes elections while they are busy surrendering their people to tech.
You should have been bullied more in school.
Leftist vs liberal infighting has been going on since the late 1700s.
Of course what you really have to ask yourself is, if they’ve been infighting since basically the beginning and if their ideals are diametrically opposed then is it even in fighting?
Liberals love to call it infighting because it allows them to take credit for all the progress that happened thanks to leftists. And yet they’re always on the right-wing side of those “infights”.
What is a good alternative instance for me that is not supporting Zionism, but also not db0 as I feel some of the communities on feddit.org don’t really have the Zionism problem?
You could use an instance that federates widely (such as lemmy.zip) if you want to be able to interact with as many communities as possible.
That’s why I left. Its such a weird authoritarian way of dealing with stuff. Just ban everything and everyone you don’t agree with. Also make it a collective punishment while we’re at it…
There was a vote for it though. Any user right now could open a vote to refederate.
Just ban everything and everyone you don’t agree with.
They were specific about what they didn’t agree with: Authoritarianism.
And if they don’t want to tolerate guests from an instance that allows Zionism, then good. Any feddit.org members who think their admins’ permissiveness is tolerable are complicit in the promotion of Zionism, even if they aren’t intentionally complicit. Yes, hanging around with pro-genocide people should earn punishment, such as ostracization until they stop hanging around pro-genocide people. It’s a social media account on the Fediverse, switching isn’t difficult.
We did the same thing to Wolfballs, until their admin closed the instance because it was filled with literal neo-Nazis calling the admin a ‘race-traitor’. Tolerating every belief is utopian, pointless and self-destructive.
It’s authoritarian to do direct democracy? OK then, I guess words mean nothing anymore.
The vote itself is not. This is not just about this single vote.
What is it about then?
The answers to https://mander.xyz/comment/25351806 address this pretty nicely.
Im sorry how is making an instance vote a “weird authoritarian way of dealing with stuff”? Or is authoritarism when someone does something you dont agree with?
The issue starts beforehand. It’s easy to get an instance vote to agree with you if you ban and insult everybody on your instance who is not agreeing with you. That works exactly like those voter registration purges the Trump admin is doing.
It’s easy to get an instance vote to agree with you if you ban and insult everybody on your instance who is not agreeing with you. That works exactly like those voter registration purges the Trump admin is doing.
Except they are not banning “everybody on [their] instance who is not agreeing with [them]”, they are banning Zionazis and their symps.
Go to their matrix channels, they’re throwing around ACAB, generalizing people and if you don’t support nuking israel, you will be banned for supporting the genocide. There is no debate, there is no discussion its a hive that moves into a certain direction and if you don’t you are an outcast. Words do still mean things and acting like you can’t govern democratically and authoritarian at the same time makes no sense.
Also acting like every community on feddit.org is a genocide supporting shithole is just crazy. The fediverse lives from its interoperability across the knots. I am a grown ass adult, I don’t need DB0 to make the moral decision for me with whom I can interact and with whom I can not. What I think is quite ironic, is the fact that even though the instance is “anarchistic”, everyone is licking the boots of the governing authority pretty good. I guess you either die a hero or live long enough to become a power tripping bastard yourself.
Would you allow nazism in the fediverse?
If we don’t allow Nazis because they are hateful and violent, why should we allow hateful and violent communists/socialists/anarchists?
Is it the hate and violence we should ban? Why is a Nazi calling to kill non-whites radically worse than a communist calling for the death of non-communists? Both simple think violence and hate is perfectly justified over differences, real or perceived.
And some of us libtard facists think the idea of killing people over any differences, is what is stupid and wrong, no matter what your identity, ideology or belief.
Why is a Nazi calling to kill non-whites radically worse than a communist calling for the death of non-communists?
We shouldn’t allow people defending morally wrong stuffs that goes to all the ideological spectrum.Now answer the question would you allow supremacist and genocidal ideologies in the platforms you use?
Yeah because I’m centrist and according to lemmy nutbags I’m already genocidal supremacist by proxy, because to them any ideology outside of marxism-leninism is inherently genocidal or something.
Nor am I naive or arrogant enough to believe I am the singular person who should determine what ‘genocidal’ means. There are UN organizations for that.
Stop deflecting. Would you allow supermasist ideologies like nazism? If no why do you oppose censoring zionism the supermasist ideology behind israel colonization of Palestine
Well I don’t think Nazism is one single thing dude. Not all Nazis are the same and think the same things. Every ideology has internal debates and various camps. It all depends on the specifics, which is why I would rather deal with it user by user and judge users for their actions, not their ideologies/beliefs. I also understand the concept of context. Is a community that is making fun of Nazis by using their slogans, promoting Nazism? A lot of people certainly could not draw the distinction. What about a community that wants to talk about Nazism in a historical context? Is that promoting genocide?
You call it ‘deflection’ I called it being reasonable and not making massive generalizations. Nazism and Zionism are not One Big Thing That is Evil. Lots of people, yourself include, probably have beliefs that are in agreement with several aspects of them, and disagree with others. My beef isn’t with an ideology, it’s with calls to violence, no matter what ideology they are coming from. And lots and lots of people from various ideologies call for violence and perpetuate hate and rage. I see a buttload of it coming from lemmy leftists of various self-identified flavors. If I am going to assume Nazis are evil and bad them for their violent ideology, then I’ve got to basically ban communists/socialists/anarchists too, because by your logic both are equivalently evil.
But the main disagreement we have here is that you think ideologies are the problem. I don’t. I think people are the problem. If a particular insane of ‘Nazis’ has self identified and organized itself around violence and hate, sure I’d ban them. But there are tons of contexts in which discussion of Nazis and their beliefs would be totally permissible and admirable. I myself have done various history projects on the KKK and supremacy and papers on the ideology in my academic career. Am I therefore promoting or believing in Nazi ideology?
In a professional context, like say legit hate groups being investigated by FBI or the press, what is targeted is the actions of the group and the individuals therein. That’s what I’m interested in policing, not thought or discussion.
Israel declaration of independence mention Herzl as the spiritual father of the state. Herzl advocated for ethnic cleansing
Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
The property owners will come over to our side. According to my conception, the majority of the local population will have to be transferred elsewhere.
We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will **abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine ** partition might be only a temporary arrangement for the next twenty to twenty-five years - Chaim Weizmann 1st President of Israel
You can’t claim to be anti genocide and settler colonialism if you don’t think Zionism is a problem
The mods of feddit support the ideology they do not frame it in historical lenses but in a way to justify the nekba , neksa and the continuation of the settler colonialism project
They really lost the plot when they joined the tankie triad.
Good to see that the definition of tankie now includes anti-Zionism.
How can it be a triad if there are 4 🤓
dont send me selfies
I don’t wear glasses, actually.
Notice how the ragebait, communication destroying comments and got’chas are coming from a handful of users in this thread (Cowbee, Riverside, etc.) Ask yourself why they would want to separate the left and who benefits from that.
Edit: ah and like clockwork, the “I now want to communicate reasonably” spiel. Not falling for that one.
Wow seems like all the bad actors got caught by this.
Notice how the criticisms are based on a fundamental lie: that feddit.org is a zionist instance. Without that lie all of the agitators “arguments” crumble to the sad leftist-dividing dust that they are.
Calling for death to nations (and their civilians) is a call for genocide. I hope non-extremists can see that.
Also, as a tip: don’t answer the trolls and agitators. Leave them hanging, screaming into the wind.
Notice how the criticisms are based on a fundamental lie: that feddit.org is a zionist instance. Without that lie all of the agitators “arguments” crumble to the sad leftist-dividing dust that they are.
“They’re not zionist, they just defend Israel’s right to exist.”
They are zionists and so are you. You’re also a dishonest coward who replies to people through edits and hopes they don’t notice. Death to “Israel” and death to the Federal Republic of Germany.
Edit:
Calling for death to nations (and their civilians) is a call for genocide. I hope non-extremists can see that.
Also, as a tip: don’t answer the trolls and agitators. Leave them hanging, screaming into the wind.
You are literally answering me, lmao. Well, not really, you’re actually replying to things I didn’t say.
Yay anarchists! 👍
Boo zionists! 👎Classical Lemmy.ml comment
Especially since the .ml-ers are mostly Putin bootlickers and authoritarian fans. I hope real anarchists can see that.
Sorry, what was that? I can’t hear you when you’re all the way over in defederation.
Fuck anarchists, tankies, Zionists, regressives and bigots in general.
Y’all just different shades of the same crazy.
Everyone is crazy, except your team, right?
a predictable lemmy.ml user retort.
Relevant username? :)
